Members of HT are always willing to assist people who have holiday related problems. HT is not a group of people campaigning against any particular TO or regulating body.

You do not give any details of your problem/complaint so we have no idea if your complaint was valid or reasonable.

ABTA is a trade body - Association of British Travel Agents - and as such represents its members. Yes, they will act against any who breach their rules but the object of their Code of Conduct is nothing to do with upholding consumer rights. There are other bodies and legislation that do that.

The object of their arbitration service is to endeavour to resolve disputes between their members and people who feel aggrieved. The conditions are set out clearly on their website.
Quoting from their website "Arbitration is a quick, low-cost alternative to court action." And "The arbitrator's decision is legally binding on you and the company and is enforceable directly through the courts.

So what is your problem or are you simply trying to start a campaign?

fwh

I agree with fwh, and I didn't think a decision of the arbitrator could be appealed.

I would query ABTA on this -

"Arbitration is a quick, low-cost alternative to court action." And "The arbitrator's decision is legally binding on you and the company and is enforceable directly through the courts.

Peter

fwh - I know what you mean about the purpose of HT. HT has moderators for this reason.

You and Talisman are both correct in the fact that ABTA are all about their members and their Code of Conduct does not actually give consumers any rights but simply lays down a few guidelines for it's members to follow so that they don't go to court when things go wrong. Over the last couple of years ABTA's consumer protection has been diluted by the way they operate and sell travel components and thus avoid responsibility of any kind. In other words (my opinion) ABTA's code of conduct enables members to squirm out of their responsibilities to suit their own needs first. They have been working towards this goal of theirs for some time.

I think there is a place for debate on HT. Why not? If not, I suggest Talisman you search on Travel Rants, much has been discussed there in a open and informative way about consumer protection.

FWIW: Why have consumers being brainwashed into booking a holiday through an ABTA travel agency when ABTA offer no protection. It's true that, ABTA would welcome another ten minutes of PR (even bad PR) that will again, at best confuse, or at worst fool an already confused public. The more you say it the more you think it's worth something. It's not.

I've only dealt with ABTA when I had a problem with My travel and it was obvious where it was going. They said their Code of Conduct didn't cover to problem and suggested I went to arbitration. I felt that was backing myself into a corner and used the other option of court action which worked. I've a feeling that under the terms of the Arbitration scheme you have to agree not to go to court later.

At the end of the day ABTA is a trade organisation not a consumers group. Their only real use is the bonding scheme if a company goes bust and that only applies if the booking meets the right criteria.

The ABTA scheme a low cost alternative! - don't believe it. If either party wishes the first arbitration to be reviewed they can apply at a cost of £350.00. A second arbitrator is then appointed and if they change the outcome, then there is still a right of appeal to the high court.

However, this plays into the hands of holiday companies, as they use in house lawyers to apply for the review. The ABTA rules say arbitrators are supposed to understand that the average holidaymaker will not have legal support for small claims. But I believe at review stage the arbitrators (certainly in my case) accept the holiday companies legal submissions, more fearful of consequence, or high court appeal from the holiday company, than little old customers just complaining.

In my case the first arbitrator was very satisfied there were breaches of contract, breaches of code of conduct, and misrepresentation awarding amounts for each totalling £400 - this reflected our direct evidenced losses of £350.00 plus rounding up. But the holiday company submitted a detailed legal argument, supported by high court case law. The 2nd arbitrator reveiwed the case, accepted the holiday companies arguments. It will cost £3 -4,000 to take this to high court.

With the review arbitration ruling code of conduct is not relevant in that process, Abta then refused to deal with its members breaches (I know i would not get compensation that way, but neither am I left with any satisfaction that no sanctions have been applied).

The OFT approved the scheme as on paper it provides justice. but the reality is different, hence me trying to find others affected to point this out to the OFT.

Thanks steve 8482. In my case ABTA told me I had 80% chance of success. £75.00 fee seemed more attractive than court which would have cost me same money as my claim.

Thank you Aliceadventures. My opinion shares yours about ABTA, I had not been bold enough to state them and did not wish to sound like a conspiracy theorist. The letter I got from ABTA told me exactly what Steve 8482 says about them only being bonding agents. Hence I question what value the rest of the code has, and in my view so should the OFT.

FWH - my issues were no hot food some nights (full hot buffet advertised), one very rude rep, unable to use many hotel facilities as pre-booked by outside guests before our arrival in resort (no notice this may happen by holiday company). Activity tuiton so poor one of our party has lost confidence to carry out that activity again (previously having had two weeks very enjoyable experience), depriving us that type of holiday in future. Oh - the holiday company initially ignoring our complaints when we wrote to them on our return, then telling us the reason they would not compensate us was, to quote, 'our complaints are not actually complaints', and 'life is not like that in the real world'.

I hope above will allow decision if I am on the appropriate forum

"But the holiday company submitted a detailed legal argument, supported by high court case law. "

That indicates the ruling of the first arbitrator was faulty. High court case law would take preference and he could not alter or rule against that.

Again we have no information on which to express an opinion, but case law would take preference over what the first arbitrator ruled. I am however puzzled when you say that the company appealed against the first ruling. My understanding of the ABTA scheme was that both parties accepted the ruling and there was no right of appeal.

If you feel that ABTA broke its own rules then it is within your right to take up the matter with the OFT. But you are asking us to petition on your behalf about something that we do not know about.

fwh

FHW - In my view, the first abritrator got it right. The specific rules of the ABTA scheme state to quote

'1.8 In considering the Parties' cases, the Arbitrator shall have regard to ABTA 's Code of Conduct. In the event of a conflict between a rule of law and a provision of the code, the interpretation most favourable to the customer shall prevail.'

In term of appeal situation see my posting at 4.00 and extract below also from ABTA scheme rules

6. Finality of the award

6.1 Subject only to Rule 6.2, the Award of the Arbitrator is final and binding on the Parties, and any payments that the Arbitrator directs to be paid must be paid within 21 days of the date of receipt of the award.

6.2 If either Party considers the Award is one that no Arbitrator should reasonably have made on the basis of the documents presented, they may write to the Administrator applying for the Award to be referred to Review.

6.3 If no Application for Review is made within 21 days of receipt of the award, all Parties must comply with the terms of the original arbitration Award.

The review arbitrator states the appeal rights when he makes his award. In my case 28 days to apply to high court.

I do not have access to private message so how can I send more information and how much would you want. i have a two page summary but this gives names of parties.

Your problem is not that the first arbitrator was right (in your view) in his decision. The problem is that it went against a ruling made in law. He has no power to rule against a decision made by the high court, which is why it was overturned on appeal.

With hindsight you could view the decision to go to ABTA arbitration was the wrong one. A good travel law solicitor would not have cost you any more than you have already paid out, and could possibly have negotiated some sort of settlement in your favour.

The only comment I will make on the details of your complaint posted is on the activity instructor. I don't know what it was but as someone teaching and coaching in adventurous pursuits for over thirty years I have a great distrust of many who do it for a living. Lack of skills and never ever failing someone taking one of their courses. It is all about the money. you wont get many customers if you are known to fail people.

fwh

Thank you FWH

Thats what I have been told by the arbitration admininistrators, despite protesting that the case quoted was one involving FTO preferred code of practice, and a serious personal injury claim that has no relevance to ABTA's scheme - which will only cover minor personal injury which is the minority part of a claim.

Therefore, if high court law would always over-rule arbitration rules, then my opinion is clause 1.8 of the ABTA scheme rules is misrepresentative, and it will, as it did with me, mislead a complainant when deciding which route to take. The rule implies favour to the customer, and validity of the code of conduct, but in reality this cannot be the case.

My opinion is this rule should therefore to withdrawn, and that is enough for me to seek change, which I think would have to be acted on, even from a single person.

For that reason this forum has been of help to me so thanks to you and other members. I will let you know how i get on.

Talisman

The question I would ask is not about the rules but rather the competence of the first arbitrator. His job is to try to resolve a dispute between two parties. Any ruling he makes cannot be at variance with case law for obvious reasons. Whilst he may have ruled in your favour, if he had any doubts then he should have sought legal advice before ruling. The brief description you have given of your problems are things we have heard before on HT. I think he should have been aware of prior rulings and taken note of them when reaching his decision.
Lawyers always review any case after the event. It is likely that when doing so someone recalled the previous high court ruling and therefore instigated the appeal.

fwh