I have been told several times over the years, by the hotel reps (both Thomson/first choice and Thomas Cook) that by using outside operators you wold not be covered by insurance.
I'm sure that if you do a search on here (and any other forum) you will see reference to this, then you can print it off as evidence?

To be honest I think that the Insurance that the likes of First Choice mean are that they will give you your excursion money back if for some reason the third party supplier cancels the trip.

The type of Insurance you require for Health purposes is the kind you get from your own Holiday Insurance Company and they all offer a basic policy or an enhanced policy that covers dangerous sports such as parasailing, Quads, bungees, skiing etc

If you think there is any chance you may take part in these kinds of activities it's essential that you take this out before you go really.

It's certainly part of their selling patter though .. dont purchase trips from anyone else because you won't be insured .No they don't actually say what you are insured with them for but I'm not convinced many of us would go and ask to inspect a copy of their policy before we booked either . Definately highly misleading if you are not.

I've never taken much notice of their sales spill and have happily booked the occasional trips from agents in Turkey and from direct sales around the pools .Same applies with water sports .. most insurance companys don't include them and it's best to check before you go. Insureand go covers about 40 activities in their standard policy but nobody that I know would cover quad bikes unless you pay a premium before you go . I've done that in the past with paragliding in olu Deniz and quad biking in Egypt for a small additional charge .

I'm sure there was a change in the law regarding booking abroad even with your Tour Operator. I think you had more cover if you booked the excursion in the UK via TO.

PS Have found this:- http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/travel-rights/package-holidays/excursions/

BBC Watchdog is currently on TV. They regularly feature horror stories about holiday companies. It can do no harm to tell them yours. They may be interested in warning the public the truth about excursions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/gotastory/

I think I would only be happy if I had booked the extra cover in the UK with my own travel insurance company.

I may be a bit cynical about this, but I think the agents in resort would probably tell you anything to get you to book your excursions with them as the majority of their salary is commission based.

I'm also not sure how they could cover people for medical insurance anyway ? How would they know if you had any pre-existing conditions, are on medication or have had an operation in the last six months ? When you ring insurance companys to book insurance they will often refer you to their specialist medical phone line to discuss things.

Also if you have to disclose any pre-exisiting conditions that then affects the premium you pay, insurance policys aren't really a general 'one size fits all' type product, many of them have to be tweaked to the individuals own circumstances.

What a horrific time you have had. I wish you luck with fighting this. And, although this doesn't help you, it certainly serves as a warning to others to check that their own insurance covers dangerous sports.

In Tunisia the reps always give dire warnings about booking excursions or anyhing else except through them and stress that you are at serious risk if you do so. I have always recognised this as a sales ploy and your dreadful experience serves as a warning to everyone. I can understand the company not covering you for something like a simple fall, even with broken bones, but an accident due to faulty equipment, provided by a company used by them, is an entirely different matter and you should be able to rely on the reps assurance that they were insured. The state of your health prior to the accident is immaterial as it was the faulty quadbike which caused the disaster and for this they have accepted responsibility when they assured you that there trips were safe. I do wish you luck in fighting this.

Qwennie, what an horrendous story, and I wish you well in your fight for compensation.

Many years ago, I was a "commission only" rep for an agency, and would sell tours at Welcome Meetings. I was assured by my agency that all clients were covered by insurance for ALL the excursions I sold - and I truly believed that was the case. I had my own set of ethics, and would never have sold an excursion that (a) I hadn't been on, and (b) that I thought wouldn't suit the client who wished to take it. I also advised clients that if they wished to take an excursion with another company that they checked that that company had the relevant insurance in place, I certainly didn't use scare tactics though.

I'm not saying this is the case, but maybe the reps who sold you the excursion believed that you would be insured in the case of accident? Luckily for me, during my time as a sales rep, I never had to find out if my agency had told me the truth or not.

I know from reading your story that, in future, if I take excursions I will double and triple check the conditions. Like you I would have believed the rep.

TOs have a duty of care when they offer/sell excursions/activities. They are in effect in effect recommending the supplier/operator and I find it very strange that they would not have insurance that covers them in the event of something going wrong.

There have been several high profile cases where an operator of activities has, after an incident, been found not to have insurance cover which is the reason a TO/Rep would say do not book this excursion/activity except with us.

Personal travel insurance is quite specific about adventurous activity cover. You have to opt in and pay an additional premium to be covered. Whilst taking part in an activity booked via a TO then it is your responsibility to ensure that you have appropriate personal insurance in place. It is no good expecting the TO to provide insurance. The insurance they should/will have would only apply where
you were making a claim on the basis that the TO had breached their duty of care.

Whilst I have sympathy for your plight, the TO cannot be held responsible for an accident such as you describe. First there is the question of your qualification/ability to operate such a vehicle. A course to gain a qualification to ride/operate quad bikes here in the UK would cost approx. £300. I know because I have enquired. Here in the UK you are required to obtain a licence – unfortunately in many countries such requirements do not apply.

fwh

Surely though, in this case the TO has breached their duty to care?

Are you saying then, fwh, that excursions such as paragliding, surfing, windsurfing, gokarting and, yes, quad biking, all should be insured under your travel insurance? How do you know what excursions you may want to take when you go on holiday, until you know what is offered?

a bit, but here in Lanzarote, there is no need for a course to qualify to ride a quad - if you have a full licence (UK or Spanish) you are entitled to ride one. I have a two man quad, and the only requirement, if you wish to take it on the public highway, is that insurance (and an MOT) is mandatory.

madsue wrote:

Surely though, in this case the TO has breached their duty to care?

Are you saying then, fwh, that excursions such as paragliding, surfing, windsurfing, gokarting and, yes, quad biking, all should be insured under your travel insurance? How do you know what excursions you may want to take when you go on holiday, until you know what is offered?

Yup, most of the basic holiday insurance policies flogged by T.Os/T.As exclude most/all of these activities.It usually doesn't cost much to add cover for some "dangerous" sports UNLESS you have a pre-existing condition which might increase your chances of needing a rescue!!altho' some activities are very expensive if not uninsurable risks.
For instance,even if you take/add Winter sports cover things like off piste skiing and heli skiing are not covered in many cases.
I know I would not want to risk having an accident in say, Tunisia, on an excursion and then find that I had to mortgage my house to pay the medical bills.
H & S responsibility is a double edged sword - the local TO's reps. may have breached their "duty of care" - but so has the person undertaking the activity without ensuring that they have the necessary cover.

madsue wrote:

Surely though, in this case the TO has breached their duty to care?

Are you saying then, fwh, that excursions such as paragliding, surfing, windsurfing, gokarting and, yes, quad biking, all should be insured under your travel insurance? How do you know what excursions you may want to take when you go on holiday, until you know what is offered?

a bit, but here in Lanzarote, there is no need for a course to qualify to ride a quad - if you have a full licence (UK or Spanish) you are entitled to ride one. I have a two man quad, and the only requirement, if you wish to take it on the public highway, is that insurance (and an MOT) is mandatory.

I thought you were always supposed to take out insurance to cover any dangerous sports that you may partake in prior to travelling sue

One of my family members goes skiing regularly and there is no way they we would expect First Choice, Thomson, Thomas Cook or whoever they organise it through to insure them for anything that went wrong if they had an accident and needed serious medical help.

Perhaps I'm missing something here (that wouldn't be unusal) but I don't understand why Quad Biking is any different, it's known to be a very dangerous activity.

Most people know if they are going to undetake an activity sports, Oul Deniz in Turkey is famous for it's paragliding off the local mountain & down on to the beach, when we went I took out the appropriate insurance in case my teens wanted to do it.

I wouldn't of expected health insurance to be covered in the trip price itself.

I'm differentiating between excursion insurance and the "normal" travel insurance that everyone should take out when they go on a package holiday. In fact when I became a rep for a TO, the TO would not sell clients holidays if they didn't also take out travel/medical insurance.

As a seller of excursions for the agency, that I did before getting a real job, I always presumed that they would have insurance in place for anything that may or may not go wrong on these excursions.

Probably naive, but I sold those excursions in good faith.

Unfortunately when many people go on holiday they the leave common-sense at home. They sign up quite happily for a range of activities that they would never do at home.

As far as Quad Bikes are concerned there have been many horrific stories here on HT of accidents and injuries. The only requirement to hire these when on holiday is a driving licence. The fact that someone has never ridden one does not seem to matter. They then happily ride them off road without considering the consequences. These machines are “top heavy” and are very unstable.

But those are not the only experience that people sign up for. Para Gliding, Banana Boat etc. have people queuing up and nobody ever asks if they are safe or the operator is insured. It is only when things go wrong that they find out their insurance does not cover them. When I was a Canoeing Coach I carried my own personal insurance both personal and public liability – I never assumed that the insurance cover of the organisations I worked with were adequate. When I buy my annual travel insurance I always check it gives me the cover I need, not only for health but for the activities I want to take part in. A read through the exclusions might make you think.

Here in the UK we have quite stringent H&S legislation that governs such activities – whilst we might not always agree with some of the rules and regulations they do protect us from ourselves besides rogue operators. Does that mislead people when they visit foreign climes? Do they assume all countries have similar legislation and safeguards?

I have a great deal of sympathy for the OP. It seems to me that the obfuscation on behalf of First Choice has made matters worse. Without something in writing any replies would only be adjudged to be hearsay. The manner in which reps sell these things gives us the totally wrong impression. We do assume, and in this case the OP did, that no matter what happened FC would smooth the way which they did not. I do find it very strange that FC paid the hospital bill yet deny any responsibility. Why did they do that? It does seem that the OP did not have the appropriate personal insurance cover.

fwh

Hi guys, and many thanks for all the good wishes and comments. If I may clarify a few things.

Regarding the excursion, it was definitely sold as having “full insurance” and “all excursions meet UK Health and Safety standards”. To be honest, I’m sure many of us have booked excursions whilst on holiday and never REALLY think about the possibility of having an accident or mishap. That being said, I did have holiday insurance, which covered me for “Worldwide, all risks excluding skiing”, - I thought at the time I had full insurance for any situation. They asked the normal questions regarding pre-existing problems. I did not realise until I checked the policy small print that it excluded activity sports. I knew I could probably buy my excursions locally much cheaper, but felt reassured when buying the excursion from First Choice that I was dealing with a reputable company, and that if there was a problem I would be looked after.

Denny53. Indeed I was told by the reps that if I booked with a local company they would be dodgy and would not have any insurance or standards. In fact it is even in some documentation in their brochure that “First Choice are not responsible for any excursions not booked with themselves”. However First Choice are claiming I KNEW I was buying an excursion from an outside company and they are not responsible.

GlynissHT. Up until a few years ago tour companies were able to automatically reject claims for excursions purchased in the hotels because they were not deemed to be part of the holiday package and not covered under the regulations. If you booked from the UK, with your hotel and flight, you were covered, - but they had all sorts of disclaimers in the small print of their website and printed material. Because locally bought excursions were excluded, I presume the reps could say whatever they wanted, because you couldn’t claim anyway. Following some court cases, the interpretation was changed and excursions bought on holiday are included. I think the tour companies are aware of this now and probably sell their local excursions a bit more carefully. But my accident happened a couple of years ago, and I just paid and got a receipt to hand to the bus driver, - no T & C’s, so probably fell within the cracks.

Thanks Frank, I really think after a couple of years fighting with TUI and now having to engage a solicitor and still getting nowhere, that Watchdog is next on my list. In fact, I’m considering setting up a website with all the photographs of my injuries, all the correspondence, medical and dental reports, - so if nothing else people can read through it all and judge for themselves.

Doe, I understand that medical insurance is tricky, - but I don’t think it unreasonable that medical expenses after an accident are met. I was fortunate in as much that FC did in fact pay the hospital in Egypt, and the NHS looked after me when I came home. However they are refusing to pay for my dental expenses which were not covered.

Thank you Aslemma for your kind thoughts.

Madsue, got to say you sound like a very honest and ethical person, and I don’t like to think that reps selling these excursions really are telling bold faced lies. I do get the situation that reps tend to be youngsters having a few years out and a good experience and have some sympathy that they are probably paid peanuts and really depend on selling excursions to make up their money. However when I spoke to the FC rep after my accident, (the same girl who sold the excursion), she told me that I had to claim off my own insurance first, and FC would pay any difference, oh and they didn’t “do” dental. So I remain a little cynical. I thought when I came home and dealt directly with TUI that the matter would be investigated and resolved, but that has not been my experience, - they seem to have perfected the art of dragging things out for years in the hope that you’ll disappear! So now I’m very cynical!!!

Fwh. Thanks for your comments. Would just like to say that I’ve had a driving licence for 30 odd years and no accidents, and have been quad biking here and in the UK and on holiday. FC, or anyone else, did not look for a driving licence from me, then or on other occasions. Indeed, - I’ve seen children, and folks in shorts and flip flops on the bikes on holiday. Personally, I wouldn’t have particularly considered quad biking to be that dangerous, you steer and control your own speed. However, when a wheel falls off…

Thanks again for all the replies, I really appreciate people taking the time to comment and reply. I totally accept that I was probably very naïve. I thought I held full insurance cover, and if I had, it probably would have covered my costs and I wouldn’t be annoying TUI. I did not appreciate how dangerous quad biking could be, - since my accident I can see from my own research there are a lot of accidents and deaths due to these bikes, and I won’t be getting up on one again in a hurry.

However, I felt it is totally outrageous that TUI can sell these excursions, stating that they are fully insured and meet UK standards. They should be very well aware, much more so than the “average punter”, how dangerous some of these activities can be. So, they should either STOP selling them. Sell them and inform their customers that they MUST have insurance and request to see the policy. Or, deal with any claim in the normal way you would deal with a claim for, say a car accident in the UK.

I have spent two fruitless years trying to deal with TUI. I have even written several letters to Peter Long, their Chief Executive, - to which I got no reply. TUI passed my correspondence directly to their Legal Department. They dragged the process out for so long that I am now approaching the cut off limit for any legal claim. However it was not until I finally got a solicitor involved that they came up with this denial of responsibility. It shows utter contempt for their customers.

How refreshing to not only receive a reply from someone with a problem but not ranting because the answers are not what they want to hear - So thank you Qwennie.

I do think your post opens up a real can of worms. Personally if I book with a reputable TO then I would expect them to accept responsibility if they promote an activity unless they told me it was at my own risk. With the history of accidents that have been related here on HT regarding quad bikes I would have expected them to warn you when booking.

I do think that the "Duty of Care" angle is worth pursuing - they claim that they make sure you are only dealing with reputable suppliers and not cowboys. We know that different standards apply in other countries which is why we trust the TO to look after our interests.

Please keep us updated on this.

fwh

We have been to Egypt for the last six years and for some silly reason always attend the welcome meeting with the Thomson reps. I can't recollect whether or not they say trips are insured but what we noticed last year for the first time was the very small print on the excursion booking form which stated something to the effect of "excursions are with third parties and Tui will not be responsible". We were absolutely appalled, it was so tiny the print, you wouldn't normally read it at all. Sadly I think that will be their "escape from jail" card.

We haven't noticed it before, and certainly in years passed it was always pressed home that doing excursions yourself was risky.

We don't bother with any trips in Egypt, it's usually a winter break in the sun we need but in other countries we have done it ourselves via local agents and have usually seen the "tour operator" excursion on the same routes and using the same facilities.

Sorry this doesn't help you, but you certainly have my sympathies.

Perhaps you could slam them with the size of the print for the disclaimer being unreasonably small and purposefully so.

Just had another thought! If you have "legal protection" insurance on your household policy, that can be used to pursue your case. I used it once for an employment issue. Many people don't realise it covers many eventualities. May be worth a phone call to your insurer.