Hi there,
am after some advice please, we booked a holiday for may 07 with airtours through going places to brazil as our honeymoon back in august 2006, and they wrote to me 3 weeks ago to pay the full amount (which i did) only to ring me few days ago to go to the travel agent to be told that my holiday has been cancelled! why? i was told that they could not fill the flight!
they offerd us alternative locations, but we were going to brazil to meet family and friends on top of the honeymoon so it was useless.
obviously this is the short version of a very distressing saga, as we have only 2 months left to organise a honeymoon and through the rule of supply and demand flight prices to brazil have doubled or trippled since then because of the short notice nature of the situation.
i have written a long letter of complaint, but i will appriciate any advice on what else to do apart from waiting for airtours?
The short answer is.......you're partially stuffed.
The longer answer is...... with Crown Copyright acknowledged.... contained in the Travel Rour Regs - clause 13.
In essence, if Airtours are acting as a Tour Operator here, and have provied you with a Package then they are required to repay you all monies - see clause 2 (c) if they are unable to provide you with an alternate package be it of greater or lesser value - see clause 2 (a) and (b).
You are not entitled to further compensation - for example, consequential losses, the cost of rebooking at higher prices now if Airtours can claim there:
is less than the minimum number required and the consumer is informed of the cancellation, in writing, within the period indicated in the description of the package
Your best bet is to check the terms and conditions that applied when you booked - get Airtours to provide a copy if necessary but make sure they are the version in effect when you booked - not NOW.
Push Airtours to provide a replacement package. I cannot for example believe they will not be selling ANY packages whatsoever for Brazil in May 07. If you can, search Airtours brochures for anything being sold now and put the option to Airturs to change you to that package.
If you see clause 2 (a) Airtours are obliged to provide such a package attheir expense. If they claim there's, say, no wedding element to packages to Brazil at your time then negotiate a value for that element and they must repay you that sum (see clause 2 (b)).
Your best bet, armed with these basic rules, might be to talk to Ros Fernihough on 01922 621114.
There's a potential lesson to be learned here. Unscrupulous Tour Operators could put a complex package together that would perhaps have a limited market appeal. They then sell the package, take deposits, even take full payments....and then cancel claiming insufficient numbers have booked. You're hard pressed to prove otherwise and they've had your money for quite a while.
Or am I TOO cynical
Good Luck and congrats on the wedding - albeit premature.
The longer answer is...... with Crown Copyright acknowledged.... contained in the Travel Rour Regs - clause 13.
Withdrawal by consumer pursuant to regulation 12 and cancellation by organiser
13.-(1) The terms set out in paragraphs (2) and (3) below are implied in every contract and apply where the consumer withdraws from the contract pursuant to the term in it implied by virtue of regulation 12(a), or where the organiser, for any reason other than the fault of the consumer, cancels the package before the agreed date of departure.
(2) The consumer is entitled-
(a) to take a substitute package of equivalent or superior quality if the other party to the contract is able to offer him such a substitute; or
(b) to take a substitute package of lower quality if the other party to the contract is able to offer him one and to recover from the organiser the difference in price between the price of the package purchased and that of the substitute package; or
(c) to have repaid to him as soon as possible all the monies paid by him under the contract.
(3) The consumer is entitled, if appropriate, to be compensated by the organiser for non-performance of the contract except where-
(a) the package is cancelled because the number of persons who agree to take it is less than the minimum number required and the consumer is informed of the cancellation, in writing, within the period indicated in the description of the package; or
(b) the package is cancelled by reason of unusual and unforeseeable circumstances beyond the control of the party by whom this exception is pleaded, the consequences of which could not have been avoided even if all due care had been exercised.
(4) Overbooking shall not be regarded as a circumstance falling within the provisions of sub-paragraph (b) of paragraph (3) above.
In essence, if Airtours are acting as a Tour Operator here, and have provied you with a Package then they are required to repay you all monies - see clause 2 (c) if they are unable to provide you with an alternate package be it of greater or lesser value - see clause 2 (a) and (b).
You are not entitled to further compensation - for example, consequential losses, the cost of rebooking at higher prices now if Airtours can claim there:
is less than the minimum number required and the consumer is informed of the cancellation, in writing, within the period indicated in the description of the package
Your best bet is to check the terms and conditions that applied when you booked - get Airtours to provide a copy if necessary but make sure they are the version in effect when you booked - not NOW.
Push Airtours to provide a replacement package. I cannot for example believe they will not be selling ANY packages whatsoever for Brazil in May 07. If you can, search Airtours brochures for anything being sold now and put the option to Airturs to change you to that package.
If you see clause 2 (a) Airtours are obliged to provide such a package attheir expense. If they claim there's, say, no wedding element to packages to Brazil at your time then negotiate a value for that element and they must repay you that sum (see clause 2 (b)).
Your best bet, armed with these basic rules, might be to talk to Ros Fernihough on 01922 621114.
There's a potential lesson to be learned here. Unscrupulous Tour Operators could put a complex package together that would perhaps have a limited market appeal. They then sell the package, take deposits, even take full payments....and then cancel claiming insufficient numbers have booked. You're hard pressed to prove otherwise and they've had your money for quite a while.
Or am I TOO cynical
Good Luck and congrats on the wedding - albeit premature.
many thanks for your advice,
i gather from what you are saying and from other forums i have been to, is that airtours can get away with selling hollidays to people that they might not be able to honour and they can ask for money in advance hold it in their account and build up the interest from it and then cancel the holiday and stall for time while refunding! i think crooks have missed this one! and it is legal way to use other peoples money.
so in a seperate example if i go to a supermarket and buy apples, if they cant supply apples they can supstitute it for oranges or bananas of similar or superior quality to the apples?! is that correct?
and by the way i am NOT being cynical!
and on the issue of flights to brazil, they have one flight on the day of the wedding, just 2 hours before the ceremony and the next flight is 2 weeks later! as they have clubbed with first choice to use their flights.
thank you though for your wishes.
ps. is it me or have i noticed that most of the complaints are about travel agents, or is there another section for internet agents complaints?
i gather from what you are saying and from other forums i have been to, is that airtours can get away with selling hollidays to people that they might not be able to honour and they can ask for money in advance hold it in their account and build up the interest from it and then cancel the holiday and stall for time while refunding! i think crooks have missed this one! and it is legal way to use other peoples money.
so in a seperate example if i go to a supermarket and buy apples, if they cant supply apples they can supstitute it for oranges or bananas of similar or superior quality to the apples?! is that correct?
and by the way i am NOT being cynical!
and on the issue of flights to brazil, they have one flight on the day of the wedding, just 2 hours before the ceremony and the next flight is 2 weeks later! as they have clubbed with first choice to use their flights.
thank you though for your wishes.
ps. is it me or have i noticed that most of the complaints are about travel agents, or is there another section for internet agents complaints?
shwany
please phone Ros.
In the meantime- where were you going to in Brazil? Have you looked at flights to Rio and then internal flights from there? Stick down what your plans were if you want and I'll have a look as well to see if there is anything suitable( the original costs as well) We need to get you on your holiday! I'm sure other members will want to help find you your flights too
please phone Ros.
In the meantime- where were you going to in Brazil? Have you looked at flights to Rio and then internal flights from there? Stick down what your plans were if you want and I'll have a look as well to see if there is anything suitable( the original costs as well) We need to get you on your holiday! I'm sure other members will want to help find you your flights too
many thanks fiona,
we are glad to find such a wonderful website where we can vent our anger!
our honeymoon have been spoilt and the tears have dried now, this is not a personal vandetta against airtours, and the only goal we would like to achieve is really to stop this misery from happening to other people because its not fair and its not right.
I think by law people should be told in advance by the travel agent while buying a holiday about the possiblity of their holiday being cancelled, not just being a small print somewhere.
so where do i start? local MP? trading standards? watchdog? somebody?
from what i gather ABTA is waste of time.
we really appriciate your thoughts and would like to thank you for your concern.
we are glad to find such a wonderful website where we can vent our anger!
our honeymoon have been spoilt and the tears have dried now, this is not a personal vandetta against airtours, and the only goal we would like to achieve is really to stop this misery from happening to other people because its not fair and its not right.
I think by law people should be told in advance by the travel agent while buying a holiday about the possiblity of their holiday being cancelled, not just being a small print somewhere.
so where do i start? local MP? trading standards? watchdog? somebody?
from what i gather ABTA is waste of time.
we really appriciate your thoughts and would like to thank you for your concern.
where to start? If you mean your immediate problem then phone Ros for advice- its free for HT members. see here
http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=57959
If you mean how to stop it in the future- I'm not sure but your priority just now is sorting out your honeymoon - leave the rest till later. Arranging weddings is stressful enough without taking on airtours as well!
Good luck with sorting out your honeymoon and any practical help with arranging your holiday just ask! Please let us know what happens.
http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=57959
If you mean how to stop it in the future- I'm not sure but your priority just now is sorting out your honeymoon - leave the rest till later. Arranging weddings is stressful enough without taking on airtours as well!
Good luck with sorting out your honeymoon and any practical help with arranging your holiday just ask! Please let us know what happens.
Good practical advice Fiona.
I sometimes miss the obvious - that's to get these two guys married.
Can't help with flight info - never been that far south in America. Do remember though that Airtours cannot wash their hands completely - focus on the rules that CURRENTLY exist. Ask them for viable alternatives. Bear in mind that your wedding time might be flexible as a complete cancellation does not benefit anyone.
As regards stopping this kind of thing happening in the future.........I suspect we've little chance. We have to work within the limitations and that can include paying for holidays on a credit card - it's then possible in a breach of contract situation to reclaim from that card company.
Do please let us know the outcome though.
I sometimes miss the obvious - that's to get these two guys married.
Can't help with flight info - never been that far south in America. Do remember though that Airtours cannot wash their hands completely - focus on the rules that CURRENTLY exist. Ask them for viable alternatives. Bear in mind that your wedding time might be flexible as a complete cancellation does not benefit anyone.
As regards stopping this kind of thing happening in the future.........I suspect we've little chance. We have to work within the limitations and that can include paying for holidays on a credit card - it's then possible in a breach of contract situation to reclaim from that card company.
Do please let us know the outcome though.
I'm sorry for the upset you've had with regard to your honeymoon and the problems this now poses for you but I'm not sure that there is much scope for redress against the TO or TA. The package holiday business would collapse if operators where always legally obligated in every circumstance to provide exactly what they originally treated to provide.
Consolidating flights is one of the ways they keep costs down. Knowing that they HAD to send a flight out regardless of how many, or rather how few, passengers were actually on it would mean that they would push up the prices to ensure that even a half-empty flight would pay its way. there are rules and regulations about how they go about this but Airtours do seem to have complied with them - they've given you more than two months notice of the change, given you the option of some alternatives and if these aren't acceptable to you then they'll have to give you a full refund. But the one thing that you are unlikely to be able to insist on is that they incur extra costs by providing you with the original package I'm afraid. They, along with all other TOs will have in their T&Cs the requisite clause which will cover them in these circumstances.
If you shop on the Internet you can find that that is exactly what they can do! With most on-line supermarket shopping you're not shopping in real time. You place your order, it is sent through to depot or in the case of Tesco, you're nearest superstore and someone goes round and does the equivalent of filling your trolley up for you. If they happen to have sold out of apples they'll either send a substitute or refund the money to your card depending on which box you've ticked. Technically, they've done just what Airtours have done - sold you the apples which when they find out they cannot supply them they either provide you with a subsitute or refund your money.
SM
Consolidating flights is one of the ways they keep costs down. Knowing that they HAD to send a flight out regardless of how many, or rather how few, passengers were actually on it would mean that they would push up the prices to ensure that even a half-empty flight would pay its way. there are rules and regulations about how they go about this but Airtours do seem to have complied with them - they've given you more than two months notice of the change, given you the option of some alternatives and if these aren't acceptable to you then they'll have to give you a full refund. But the one thing that you are unlikely to be able to insist on is that they incur extra costs by providing you with the original package I'm afraid. They, along with all other TOs will have in their T&Cs the requisite clause which will cover them in these circumstances.
so in a seperate example if i go to a supermarket and buy apples, if they cant supply apples they can supstitute it for oranges or bananas of similar or superior quality to the apples?! is that correct?
If you shop on the Internet you can find that that is exactly what they can do! With most on-line supermarket shopping you're not shopping in real time. You place your order, it is sent through to depot or in the case of Tesco, you're nearest superstore and someone goes round and does the equivalent of filling your trolley up for you. If they happen to have sold out of apples they'll either send a substitute or refund the money to your card depending on which box you've ticked. Technically, they've done just what Airtours have done - sold you the apples which when they find out they cannot supply them they either provide you with a subsitute or refund your money.
SM
Hi there everyone,
many thanks for all your replies and advice, just a little update about what we done,
we have asked airtours for a full refund, as to be honest we cannot trust them with any alternatives as there is no guarentees that they are not going to mess up again infact its more likely the second time.
we have thought about this for along time, and on the issue of the wedding being "flexible" anybody who did actually go through the process can tell you that there is no such thing, a church (at least ours) has to be booked at least 6 months (and thats not even guarenteed at this time, a year is more like it) before, as the bans should be read at least 2 months in advance. booking halls sorting invitations and sending them to people and they have to take holidays or days off (beside ours) needs notice, and to be honest you will have to be very lucky these days to get a holiday on a 2 month notice as its not the "norm". so due to all the above issues we decided to cancel our booking with this company.
on the bright side we are going to book a DIY holiday, ie. book the flights flat and car all seperate, to cyprus (albeit not like brazil but better than the TO choice, and a holiday is what you make it).
on the issue of paying by credit cards and getting a refund when things do not go your way, sorry! the TA's have thought about that too, you have to pay a surcharge if you pay at goingplaces by credit card, i think they have thought of everything, and if i didnt know any better i would have thought that i was talking about the mob!
on the issue that TO's have compiled bullet proof t&c to cover themselves for any eventuality doesnt mean that they are "FAIR" it just means that they havent been challenged yet!
picture this you are a person waiting in a bus stop at 1am for the nightbus and when the bus arrives the driver says well since you are the only passenger, am sorry this bus journey have been cancelled and if you argue you are faced with the bus company's t&c! and lets face it as SMa puts it, it does not make any financial sense, i mean all these trains running us to work every moring with very few passengers, the train companies can make alot of money by "just cancelling it" and give you a full refund or offer you first class ticket on the following journey which 2 hours later! and hey your boss at work wouldnt mind if you arrive 2 hours later as long as you are there! right?
so the question is how come the bus or train companies havent adopted this highly successful model?
i shall be contacting ros soon and get more advice thank you for that fiona, and the other people on my list will be contacted as well, i mean what have i got to lose? just writing a letter really!
many thanks for all your replies and advice, just a little update about what we done,
we have asked airtours for a full refund, as to be honest we cannot trust them with any alternatives as there is no guarentees that they are not going to mess up again infact its more likely the second time.
we have thought about this for along time, and on the issue of the wedding being "flexible" anybody who did actually go through the process can tell you that there is no such thing, a church (at least ours) has to be booked at least 6 months (and thats not even guarenteed at this time, a year is more like it) before, as the bans should be read at least 2 months in advance. booking halls sorting invitations and sending them to people and they have to take holidays or days off (beside ours) needs notice, and to be honest you will have to be very lucky these days to get a holiday on a 2 month notice as its not the "norm". so due to all the above issues we decided to cancel our booking with this company.
on the bright side we are going to book a DIY holiday, ie. book the flights flat and car all seperate, to cyprus (albeit not like brazil but better than the TO choice, and a holiday is what you make it).
on the issue of paying by credit cards and getting a refund when things do not go your way, sorry! the TA's have thought about that too, you have to pay a surcharge if you pay at goingplaces by credit card, i think they have thought of everything, and if i didnt know any better i would have thought that i was talking about the mob!
on the issue that TO's have compiled bullet proof t&c to cover themselves for any eventuality doesnt mean that they are "FAIR" it just means that they havent been challenged yet!
picture this you are a person waiting in a bus stop at 1am for the nightbus and when the bus arrives the driver says well since you are the only passenger, am sorry this bus journey have been cancelled and if you argue you are faced with the bus company's t&c! and lets face it as SMa puts it, it does not make any financial sense, i mean all these trains running us to work every moring with very few passengers, the train companies can make alot of money by "just cancelling it" and give you a full refund or offer you first class ticket on the following journey which 2 hours later! and hey your boss at work wouldnt mind if you arrive 2 hours later as long as you are there! right?
so the question is how come the bus or train companies havent adopted this highly successful model?
i shall be contacting ros soon and get more advice thank you for that fiona, and the other people on my list will be contacted as well, i mean what have i got to lose? just writing a letter really!
so the question is how come the bus or train companies havent adopted this highly successful model?
Shwany, I know you're upset but the hypothetical bus stop scenario you refer to isn't the same as your situation. Airtours didn't wait until you were at the gate to consolidate the flight. And I can only assume that you don't regularly travel to work by train :-)
SM
shwany,
So sorry to hear your perdicument, they really do have us over a barrell. I would be sooooo disappointed If I was in your shoes, they don't seem to care how long it has taken you to select that particular holiday and why, they change it and you have to accept it!!!!
I am also in a bit of an awkward position nowhere near a problem as yours but I feel annoyed to and a little helpless, although I have had some great advice from people on here and they seem to be on my side. I would suggest you don't give up and like already suggested, speak to Ros, she has helped me before with something and doubled my compensation.
Good luck with your marriage and i am sure your wedding day will go well, Cyprus is lovely.
Sue xxx
So sorry to hear your perdicument, they really do have us over a barrell. I would be sooooo disappointed If I was in your shoes, they don't seem to care how long it has taken you to select that particular holiday and why, they change it and you have to accept it!!!!
I am also in a bit of an awkward position nowhere near a problem as yours but I feel annoyed to and a little helpless, although I have had some great advice from people on here and they seem to be on my side. I would suggest you don't give up and like already suggested, speak to Ros, she has helped me before with something and doubled my compensation.
Good luck with your marriage and i am sure your wedding day will go well, Cyprus is lovely.
Sue xxx
Cyprus will be lovely. I'm glad you've got that part sorted out. Now you have a great excuse for another holiday soon to Brazil Good luck with everything- wedding, honeymoon and any further action you take re Airtours. Please update us
Good luck with everything- wedding, honeymoon and any further action you take re Airtours. Please update us
Hi
Sorry about all the problems with your plans for your wedding. My Son chose to marry in Paphos in July of 2005 and 31 of us went for the wedding. We all had a wonderful time and my brothers from Australia USA and Wales all were there.
They already had 2 little girls then aged 1 & 3 and my other grandchildren had a wondertime time with each other.
The wedding was a RC one and they had a lot of work to do getting all the correct paper work from Ireland to Cyprus so that the wedding could go ahead.
They married in St George's Chapel which was just big enough to hold everyone. They had Celtic music for the service and came down the Aisle to an Irish Jig!
They are both musicians and obviously choose the music themselves and it was all wonderful.
We had a reception afterwards with a dinner and dancing in the evening. This was followed by a large wedding reception in Ireland the week after they returned and a lot of us went over for that also.
Good luck and best wishes for a long and happy married life and enjoy Cyprus>
Sue
Sorry about all the problems with your plans for your wedding. My Son chose to marry in Paphos in July of 2005 and 31 of us went for the wedding. We all had a wonderful time and my brothers from Australia USA and Wales all were there.
They already had 2 little girls then aged 1 & 3 and my other grandchildren had a wondertime time with each other.
The wedding was a RC one and they had a lot of work to do getting all the correct paper work from Ireland to Cyprus so that the wedding could go ahead.
They married in St George's Chapel which was just big enough to hold everyone. They had Celtic music for the service and came down the Aisle to an Irish Jig!
They are both musicians and obviously choose the music themselves and it was all wonderful.
We had a reception afterwards with a dinner and dancing in the evening. This was followed by a large wedding reception in Ireland the week after they returned and a lot of us went over for that also.
Good luck and best wishes for a long and happy married life and enjoy Cyprus>
Sue
thank you SueDerbyshire, fiona and keela1eva2 am sure we will enjoy the holiday to cyprus, we really appriciate all the help and advice, and i will certainly let you know on the progress, written a complaint letter to airtours and waiting for a reply (which is a bit of formality before i contact other authorties), they had the cheek to charge me a cancellation fee on a holiday extra option, but i guess its all part of the exprience.
can i ask you a question SMa? do you work for airtours or are you affiliated with them? because you just sound like their agents, telling you the bad news with a false smile on their face!
can i ask you a question SMa? do you work for airtours or are you affiliated with them? because you just sound like their agents, telling you the bad news with a false smile on their face!
can i ask you a question SMa? do you work for airtours or are you affiliated with them? because you just sound like their agents, telling you the bad news with a false smile on their face!
Far from it! But I do think that one has to be realistic and accept that when dealing with TOs there really is no point in crying for the moon. And that one doesn't help a case by making unrealistic comparisons. Enjoy your honeyman in Cyprus and may you have a long and happy marriage but be ready to let this one go.
SM
Far from it!
so does that mean yes?
I do think that one has to be realistic and accept that when dealing with TOs there really is no point in crying for the moon.
moon? so being treated fairly these days is called crying for the moon eh? what happens if i called for compensation and took the company to court? what will i be called then?
when you say realistic, by which authority do you speak and what background do you speak it from? and the fact that you are in total agreement with the TO makes me wonder?
coz defending a crook can only make you, you know what.
be ready to let this one go.
is that a threat?
keep your wishes to yourself mate! coz you need it! no further advice is needed from you mate.
You asked for advice and you got it. A lot of people went out of their way to assist you.
Unfortunately some of that advice was not what you wanted to hear.
Don't shoot the messenger!
If you want a definitive answer as to the legal situation in your case, phone Ros for advice as has been suggested.
Peter
Unfortunately some of that advice was not what you wanted to hear.
Don't shoot the messenger!
If you want a definitive answer as to the legal situation in your case, phone Ros for advice as has been suggested.
Peter
I think that this is now getting nasty and really is uncalled for. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and does not deserve to be abused by someone who is asking for advice in the first instance.
I think we are all sympathetic in the first instance and I can understand your frustration but I think that you have now made a decision to go to Cyprus and if you can put this behind you.
In the long run while the TA or the TO will not lose sleep over this holding on to the resentment will impact on your wedding and your honeymoon. This is going to be the most important day of your life and don't let anything detract from it.
I wish you every happiness in your life ahead.
Sue
I think we are all sympathetic in the first instance and I can understand your frustration but I think that you have now made a decision to go to Cyprus and if you can put this behind you.
In the long run while the TA or the TO will not lose sleep over this holding on to the resentment will impact on your wedding and your honeymoon. This is going to be the most important day of your life and don't let anything detract from it.
I wish you every happiness in your life ahead.
Sue
shwany
SMa is a longstanding member who gives a lot of good advice. You may not like the advice but it was given with the best of intentions. If you read the last post again you were wished well. I know weddings are stressful times but SMa did not deserve that response. I hope when you read through this again you will realise that. Members here like to help, but will also be realistic with what can be done. You have a huge uphill battle. Who knows? You might win! In the meantime please recognise when someone is trying to help.
SMa is a longstanding member who gives a lot of good advice. You may not like the advice but it was given with the best of intentions. If you read the last post again you were wished well. I know weddings are stressful times but SMa did not deserve that response. I hope when you read through this again you will realise that. Members here like to help, but will also be realistic with what can be done. You have a huge uphill battle. Who knows? You might win! In the meantime please recognise when someone is trying to help.
Members of HT can only ever express a personal opinion. In some cases they may have a more in depth knowledge of the particular problem; therefore, what they post may not always be what the person with the problem wants to hear.
The extract from The Travel Tour Regs - clause 13 might be viewed as such. It gives bad news for the person with the complaint. It states that the TO in certain circumstances may cancel and the aggrieved is stuck with it.
It would be easy for everyone to post that they feel sympathy for you and encourage you to sue. But if that is what people expect then the forum would not be doing its job. We are here to help anyone with a problem. At times we are unable to do so in the way that the person with the problem would like to hear.
It has been suggested that you should contact Ros Fernihough on 01924 621114 - She is a specialist Travel Lawyer who has helped many members of HT
In my opinion, that is your only option.
fwh
The extract from The Travel Tour Regs - clause 13 might be viewed as such. It gives bad news for the person with the complaint. It states that the TO in certain circumstances may cancel and the aggrieved is stuck with it.
It would be easy for everyone to post that they feel sympathy for you and encourage you to sue. But if that is what people expect then the forum would not be doing its job. We are here to help anyone with a problem. At times we are unable to do so in the way that the person with the problem would like to hear.
It has been suggested that you should contact Ros Fernihough on 01924 621114 - She is a specialist Travel Lawyer who has helped many members of HT
In my opinion, that is your only option.
fwh
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