Without seeing the T&Cs applicable for the country of hire it is difficult to advise on this. I note they are part of Lastminute.Com. Have you spoken with them?

fwh

My issue is with Holiday Autos UK and their Ts & Cs and these are available on their UK website, not the Spanish company

Your problem is with the supplier of the car and the contract you signed with them. Holiday Autos acts as a broker matching customers with rental companies and state quite clearly in their T&Cs that they cannot accept liability for any charges incurred on documentation signed for and accepted locally.

This condition is shown on their website;

you will be required to sign a rental contract with the rental company which supplies the vehicle. You should satisfy yourself that you understand (and agree) to its terms and conditions, as you will be subject to, and must comply with these terms,

fwh

Terms and conditions here Frank http://www.holidayautos.co.uk/cgi-bin/liveweb.sh/webpage.w?table=&=consumer&aff=&ctryref=GBR&currcode=&lang=EN&wfnGffgjNZadgbUQ=&pageid=1222#theft_waiver

I have always used holiday autos when travelling to France to visit relatives as they are by far the cheapest when you obtain the 15% discount widely available on the net and the added bonus of 2nd driver included free . They are a booking agent and when we get to France we collect our car from "national citier" (I would imagine this can be different in other countries , sign their paperwork and hand over our credit card so they can keep the details for a £500 excess should we damage the car or it is stolen . I always take out the damage excess waiver which as you say should enable me to reclaim from holiday autos should we have to pay it so I would also be interested to hear any advice on this one .

I believe the reason FWH is asking the country is because different terms and conditions apply outside of Europe . i.e United states .

I do note this paragraph under the theft waiver that is included within the damage excess waiver so could this be the strumbling block for the OP

Exclusions
Where the keys are lost, damaged or stolen, you will be liable for the reasonable costs of obtaining replacement keys which will be in addition to any excess deposit paid.
Further costs exceeding the excess will apply if the loss, damage or theft of the keys is directly related to the theft of the vehicle. These costs will be defined by the supplier

lyn

I agree with fwh. The problem is with the rental contact you signed in resort. I have just emailed holiday autos asking them the same question about theft excess in Spain and have been told to get an online quotation and then reply to their email with the quote number. They will then check with their supplier and inform me accordingly. From that I would assume it depends on who they get to supply the vehicle.

Thanks Lynn that is where I got my information from. The problem is that it states quite clearly you will be required to sign a rental contract with the rental company which supplies the vehicle. You should satisfy yourself that you understand (and agree) to its terms and conditions, as you will be subject to, and must comply with these terms.

The exclusion you quote is very specific.

Exclusions - Where the keys are lost, damaged or stolen, you will be liable for the reasonable costs of obtaining replacement keys which will be in addition to any excess deposit paid.
Further costs exceeding the excess will apply if the loss, damage or theft of the keys is directly related to the theft of the vehicle. These costs will be defined by the supplier.

My personal view - as someone who set up and ran a car hire operation here in the UK - is the condition is not unreasonable. The problem is that when people hire a car they are presented with a document detailing the T&Cs. Small print and worded in a language that the normal person does not understand. We all state we do not want any excess when hiring and assume - wrongly in this case - that we are covered for everything.

Some time ago I wrote a guide on car hire here on HT

http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=88877&start=0

I confess that I did nor consider this scenario apart from saying make sure all the boxes are ticked. Perhaps I should revisit/rewrite the guide.

There are a couple of areas that the OP might explore.

1 - Read your holiday insurance and see if there is anything in there that might cover you. If your home insurance covers you for foreign travel then check there.

2 - Contact Holiday Autos and complain that when you hired the vehicle you asked for full cover and this particular condition that applies was not made clear to you.

fwh

I have my copy here that I signed with national citer and the whole lot is in French including the terms and conditions on the back .

I did clarify with the lady at the time about the damage excess waiver and we also went back in to report damage all over the car due to a hailstorm but must admit I dont have a clue what I have signed here as I can't speak French .

would this not be classed as unreasonable if you can't understand what you are signing .

would this not be classed as unreasonable if you can't understand what you are signing .

Take your point, but to be honest even if it was in English I would challenge you to understand it. The problem with T&Cs is that there are so many and written in a language many of us cannot understand. My knowledge was gained by going on very good training courses when I started out. Very boring but we did go through them line by line.

We keep discussing TOs here on HT and it often seems to me that the majority of problems stem from the way they are written.

Theft of car keys from our homes is something we are aware of here in the UK, but to be honest it is not something I have considered when on holiday. We always have a safe and lock up passports, money and plastic but never the car keys. Maybe we should add that bit of advice when people ask about security.

fwh

I hire regularly from HA both in the UK and in Europe. As mentioned they are simply a broker for different local agencies, and you cannot tell before you book from whom your car will be loaned. Sometimes it's a major like Hertz sometimes a purely local outfit as happened in Turkey.

But the conditions of the individual car hire company are the ones that apply, even if you have already bought a CDW as part of the HA agreement, and there will always be a petrol charge unless you follow the conditions of the LOCAL company.

Sometimes with the 'add ons' that I purchase from HA makes me think that I'm being 'done' twice when the local hire company applies conditions and charges or damage limitation schemes when I actually pick up the car and sign the contract in the country in which I'm hiring the car. But usually when checked this is not the case.

Two important points as regards ALL CAR HIRE is

1) Read the T&C before you sign and make sure you understand them, even if it means taking time and the agent wants you buzz off or if there are loads of other people behind you willing you to buzz off and let them get on with their bookings ..........

2) Check the state of the vehicle before you drive it away for scratches/scrapes/partly-filled tank etc, and if it's dark, ask them how long they will give you to report damage the next day without being held responsible for it during your hire period.

Sorry to disagree with you but it is definately not with the local hire company. Holiday Autos Ts & Cs state that I will have to pay the excess locally and then reclaim it from Holiday Autos. This was clearly understood when I arranged the hire car and I have no issue with the local company who correctly charged the excess. Under the additional Standard Damage Excess Waiver product that I purchased when I arranged the hire I am now trying to claim on the SDEW that I paid to HA.

Anyway, this is not the issue, the question is, are the HA Ts & Cs misleading enough in relation to theft to make them liable or at least unclear enough that I have a case to take to Trading standards or whoever would deal with this type of query.

Lyn, try to get a straight answer from HA like we did, they won't give you one.
If your hire car is stolen you will lose up to 800 euro depending on the local company rules.

I know it will not help in this case,and it does get very involved when legal words have to be read but I found it was so involved I took out a policy in England that I felt happier with to pay the excess if anyting happened,this also covered all! the things most hire cars do not ,tyers ,windows,luggage etc at a price alot lower than the hire company.

You're right, it doesn't help this time but it will help me next time ! I won't take a risk again, (not that I thought I was taking a risk THIS time !!)

CS

not that I thought I was taking a risk THIS time !!)

Precisly CM . When you pay this extra fee , which I'm assuming in effect is insuring you against this excess fee becoming payable that is what you assume you are getting .

Further to my beef with Holiday Autos, they have people monitoring forums like this one and I received a call from them today requesting copies of the emails that I sent to the CSMA and BBC Watchdog.

If anything comes of it, positive OR otherwise, I'll let you know.

btw, how about this for a list of inclusions for car hire, this is what I want to see, (copied from the hire company that I have used for my next trip abroad) :

What's included?

"¢Full Collision Damage Waiver with no insurance excess!
"¢Full Theft Loss Waiver with no insurance excess!
"¢Public liability cover for the drivers.
"¢Third party liability cover.
"¢No hidden extras!
"¢Recent model vehicles.
"¢Unlimited mileage.
"¢Free additional driver.
"¢Airport surcharges.
"¢Bail bonds (where required).
"¢All local taxes.
"¢Free 24 hour backup service.
"¢One-way rental charges, unless otherwise stated.

"¢Full Collision Damage Waiver with no insurance excess!

But that means if you hit a wall or another vehicle. It does not cover if you drive over something and damage the underside.

"¢Full Theft Loss Waiver with no insurance excess!

That is fine if someone breaks into the car and steals it - BUT - This bit says something else.

Exclusions - Where the keys are lost, damaged or stolen, you will be liable for the reasonable costs of obtaining replacement keys which will be in addition to any excess deposit paid.
Further costs exceeding the excess will apply if the loss, damage or theft of the keys is directly related to the theft of the vehicle. These costs will be defined by the supplier.

"¢Public liability cover for the drivers.
"¢Third party liability cover.

These items they are legally required to provide even on basic insurance.

"¢No hidden extras!

Don't you believe it. Particularly on hire vehicles. When you privately insure a vehicle here in the UK then it is all straightforward but hire vehicles are another story.

You also need to check that tyres are covered in the insurance. They are not covered unless specifically stated.

fwh

Now you know why I stick to public transport!

fwh, I didn't say whose terms and conditions these were so I don't know where you're getting your quotes from but they certainly didn't come from the company I have used, they list no such exclusions.

Holiday Autos have come back to me once again and once again have told me I'm not covered, I don't know why they bother, this is the third person to tell me this.

Long and short of the matter, don't hire from Holiday Autos unless you are prepared to pay a huge excess if your hire car is stolen.

Holiday Autos booking conditions state.

you will be required to sign a rental contract with the rental company which supplies the vehicle. You should satisfy yourself that you understand (and agree) to its terms and conditions, as you will be subject to, and must comply with these terms,

They are quite specific on this point and I think that is why they are rejecting your claim. When you signed the hire contract then you agreed to the terms stated in that document.

The other terms and conditions I have quoted are the standard terms applicable to the car hire industry both home and abroad.

There are private policies you can take out in this country that can be used to cover you for vehicles hired both here and abroad. In such cases when you hire a car then the agreement is endorsed that customer supplied own insurance. In the case of a claim you settle the bill and submit it to your "private" insurance company for reimbursement.

fwh